Learning To Drive a Stick Shift

While I agree learning to drive stick is important, the case for performance is much better made by learning to go parallel like Erlang than by C/C++. Frequency isn't increasing, but number of cores are doubling now--do you really want to miss that with weaker forms of parallelism?

Eric B on Sunday, July 20, 2008

C# can actually be more performant than C++, thanks to processor-specific compilation. A little known fact, but true.

Still I agree with the general thrust. All too often the so-called "lower-level" languages get the boot in favor of fancy buzzwords.

Anonymous on Sunday, July 20, 2008

The following statement by Anonymous is FALSE:

"C# can actually be more performant than C++, thanks to processor-specific compilation. A little known fact, but true."

This is a Microsoft-sponsored delusion. Take a look at the benchmarks:

http://www.osnews.com/story/5602/NineLanguagePerformanceRound-upBenchmarkingMathFileIO/page3/

Ed K. on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Hm, I think studying at least the [url=http://www.amazon.com/Operating-Systems-Implementation-Prentice-Software/dp/0131429388]basics of operating systems[/url] is more important than working with C/C++ to gain a deeper knowledge of the "computer inside". But then C/C++ is probably the second most important thing to learn :-)

Florian Potschka on Sunday, July 20, 2008

@Ed K: Not necessarily. There are benchmarks which point both ways. For example, check out:

[url=http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/man_unman.htm]Is Managed Code Slower Than Unmanaged Code?[/url]

I admit that MS wants C# to be perceived as fast, but that doesn't necessarily means it's not. ;)

Anonymous on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Oy! You guys are starting a skirmish! heh. However, it is simply not possible for all the managed languages to be faster than native ones. Sure, you can have a smart compiler that takes advantage of each processor's strenghts and weaknesses, but that applies to every other language as well. Oh dear! I've contributed!

Ed M. on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Thanks god I started my career with C++ ;-)

David on Sunday, July 20, 2008

I'm busy trying to learn C++ at the moment. I know PHP quite well but C++ is a whole load harder. I'm glad I'm learning it though :D

Poker League on Sunday, July 20, 2008

C# can be more performance than C++. It is not a Microsoft delusion and is pretty simple to understand. C++ is compiled ahead of time into machine language. At that time a processor target is chosen. This can be P3, P4, PM, etc. along with a host of additional processor features that are available to aid an application with hardware acceleration for things like SIMD, DSP, and other multimedia instructions. Plain and simple, most C/C++ applications are compiled to target the lowest common denominator for the broadest supported PC base. This means the compiler will not take advantage of some newer processor features when optimizing the code. The .NET framework with its JIT compiler is able to tell the platform it is on as it compiles the code at runtime. This is not some fantasy, it's just a consequence of ahead of time compilation vs. just in time compilation. Java could do the same thing...

Anonymous on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Question from someone who is currently learning C++ about the first comment: How many people on the planet know Erlang? I've been told that Erlang was like a dead language but apparently you seem to think otherwise. Does anyone use it or is it supported by some group? Thanks

Adam on Sunday, July 20, 2008

check out steve yegge's video/blog post about dynamic language optimization: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/05/dynamic-languages-strike-back.html

he mentions that Java is now often faster than C++, especially with multicore. overall, the notion is that just in time compiling can be far more intelligent than precompiling because you are at the horse's mouth

he also points out that attempts to similarly optimize C++ would likely have a lot of difficulty with pointers and memory handling stuff. the language has many unmanaged performance things built into it. so old C++ programs are likely screwed. and when writing a new C++ program that could be JIT'd, you'd best not use those performance things because the JIT compiler will probably be smarter than you about optimizing. but then in that case, you might as well use C#

@Adam: Erlang is sorta like lisp in that it's just been under the radar for who knows how long, but it's still used in serious applications

aoeu on Sunday, July 20, 2008

I have no idea how many Erlang users there are. I wouldn't pick a language for performance based on it's current popularity. Instead, read the trends. If the core count keeps doubling say every 18 months and our current status quo is approaching 4 cores, in 4.5 years we're looking at 64 cores. Erlang is massively parallel with no extra effort on the developer's part, so if you compare a single threaded C program to the same in Erlang, you start seeing Erlang as something like 64 times faster (yes, probably somewhat less). That same program continues to run faster and faster exponentially every year, while the C program stays bottlenecked on the clock speed. Erlang is open source and maintained by Ericsson. There are other parallel paradigms (Haskell, Clojure) to look into too.

Eric B on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Woops...should have been 6 years in my example.

Eric B on Sunday, July 20, 2008

Thanks for the response Eric B. If I'm not mistaken Amdahl's Law is controlling on the matter of how much faster the parallel Erlang program would be in 64 cores than the serial C or C++ program.

I do think that there's probably going to be more adoption of more familiar parallel languages in the future, simply because they are easier to learn and incorporate. I've always thought of OpenMP, a language developed on C, as being the most likely language to be adopted though Cilk could probably catch on just as fast too.

I guess I know some people who work with Lisp but it's always struck me as the highly academic, artificial intelligence development language. I've always thought of Erlang as falling into that mold too.

Adam on Sunday, July 20, 2008

I'm confused. Sometimes the article says "C", sometimes "C++", and sometimes "C/C++" -- even though these are very different languages. I would think combining "C#/Java" or "Ruby/Python" makes more sense than "C/C++". Or even "Java/C++", which you point out aren't that far apart.

I've got my copies of K&R and Stroustrup right here, and they seem quite different. Different language features, different design goals, different strategies for writing programs. One is about five times as big as the other.

Are you saying one is as good as the other? Suggesting we need to learn both, and simply slashing them to save space? Pulling in Spolsky's claim about C and squinting so it applies to C++ as well? I don't see any specific features (processes and threads, stacks and heaps, etc.) that are C++-specific.

Anonymous on Monday, July 21, 2008

>the case for performance is much better made by learning to go parallel like Erlang than by C/C++.

Everything you say about Erlang is true, but it seems likely that the way towards massive parallelism will be paved by reftrofitting existing popular languages to support "Erglang-style" concurrency, rather than a massive future exodus from C#/Java to Erlang.

[url=http://ulf.wiger.net/weblog/2008/02/06/what-is-erlang-style-concurrency/]What Is Erlang-Style Concurrency?[/url]

>I'm confused. Sometimes the article says "C", sometimes "C++", and sometimes "C/C++"

And to make it even more confusing, sometimes we say "C++/CLI" ;) I think usually people group these together because C is (almost) a perfect subset of C++. Almost any C program can be compiled as a C++ program. I can learn Java without learning a thing about C#, but I can't learn C++ without also learning C. But there are other ways to pair languages as you point out.

James Devlin on Monday, July 21, 2008

Erlang is the ONLY SMP language. All others must perish.

Anonymous on Monday, July 21, 2008

> That C/C++ is the most performant language in the world, with the exception of assembler itself.

Why do people always think that "low level" means "faster"? This might have been true 20 years ago, but those days are certainly gone.

Sure, you can write assembler code that's at least as fast as C++ code. But usually, you won't. Try it yourself if you like, beating the C++ optimizer with hand-written assembly code is really really hard, unless you're using stuff the C++ compiler doesn't know like SIMD instructions. Why do you think that's the case? Because C++ is on a higher level of abstraction than assembler, the compiler "knows" more about your code, so it can transform it to optimize it for current CPUs in ways a dumb assembler can't. But there are still lots of things it can't do, because C++ is still quite "low level": you still specify exact memory layouts in C++, there's no way to tell if a function has side-effects, is thread-safe, etc. Programming in a language that's on an even higher level than C++, the optimizer could transform your code a lot more, thus make it even faster than typical C++ code (in the same sense that typical C++ code is faster than typical assembler code.)

The main reason why C/C++ compilers yield the high performance they do is because compiler writers spent the last 30+ years perfecting their optimizers for C++. But as the .NET VM and the JVM get more and more mature, we can expect them to produce more efficient code, too.

(That said, I agree with your main point: In order to be a good programmer, you should have some real experience with C, C++ and assembler, for all the reasons you gave.)

Niki on Monday, July 21, 2008

In fact, language has nothing to do with if you are a good programmer or not. C++ is so 90-s - and I would say Java/C# are more efficient if you want have things done.

Now if you want to be something more than a lamer, or a coder - learn algorithms. It is so much more worthwhile to learn algorithms and techiques, than to learn C++ just for the sake of it.

P.S. Java deal with threads, sockets and a lot of low level stuff. It just abstract away the mostly useless stuff, which you will rarely need for any job. It sucks at GUIs, where .NET is better thou.

Indiana on Monday, July 21, 2008

[i]>The main reason why C/C++ compilers yield the high performance they do is because compiler writers spent the last 30+ years perfecting their optimizers for C++. But as the .NET VM and the JVM get more and more mature, we can expect them to produce more efficient code, too.[/i]

Indeed, in some cases they (JIT compilers) already produce more efficient code. But a managed application's working set is larger and that imposes additional overhead which can't necessarily be optimized away...

[i]Now if you want to be something more than a lamer, or a coder - learn algorithms. It is so much more worthwhile to learn algorithms and techiques, than to learn C++ just for the sake of it.[/i]

I agree. Algorithms are huge, but we still have to learn stuff like:

Foo* pFoo = &fooObject;

So we know what a particular implementation is doing when it takes the address of something and tucks it away, or what an iterator is under the hood.

James Devlin on Tuesday, July 22, 2008

For those interested, some more discussion of this this article over at Hacker News:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=251584

Anonymous on Tuesday, July 22, 2008

pfft! here in the UK no one drives automatics, everyone learns using a manual transmission (unless you're special) doesn't mean we're all car mechanics though....

Anonymous on Tuesday, July 22, 2008

I started out using C++ and now write in mostly .NET languages (C# and VB.NET) I have to say that learning C++ first has made everything so much EASIER in the .NEt world

BC on Tuesday, July 22, 2008

I came across this article over at http://joel.reddit.com. This sort of thing has been stated before (as you prolly know) but I like your phrasing and agree, C++ is a seemingly retro but powerful way of bolstering your .NET skills. Anyway, cheers~

Anonymous on Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Yeah, learning C is useful is you want to write operating systems or compilers, probably the nearest equivalent of being an auto mechanic. Used to be necessary for race drivers as well, but not any more.

When you specify your program at such a low level, you don't leave the compiler much scope to optimise your high-level intentions. As you point out, the days of single-CPU systems seem numbered, and non-declarative languages just aren't going to have the scope to be optimised for massively multi-core processors. Languages like C will be out of the performance race, but still the necessary lingua franca for mechanics. Learn it so you can talk to your mechanic and understand his diagnoses - and his bill!

Greg M on Wednesday, July 23, 2008

I have a question that relates back to the foldbot. In the code you hard coded the X,Y coords to push the Fold button. My question is how did you came up with that? I looked at Spy++ but I didn't see much there that I could use. Was it a program you used or trial and error? Any help would be apprecaited!

Adam on Wednesday, July 23, 2008

C/C++ are hardly the fastest non-machine languages. Languages like FORTRAN have been around for centuries (it seems) and for most cases, are much faster than C (simpler call semantics for one). Even super high-level languages like Haskell have been known to produce code which is significantly quicker than even C (due to aggressive optimizations allowed by a pure-functional language). Also, as has been pointed out several times in the comments already, JIT languages can be significantly faster than AOT.

I seem to have misplaced the link, but a well-known developer did a benchmark recently of seven or eight languages, comparing them on a real-world level. It was still a microbenchmark, but the use-case was drawn from his customer's needs, rather than some contrived ray-tracer. The results showed Java way out front - ahead of C++ by quite a margin. I checked the code too, it's not like the C++ was poorly written or anything like that. In fact, all of the language-specific ports were written in idiomatic, performant style. For example, the C++ version used pointer arithmetic and judiciously managed the heap.

I don't challenge that C would likely beat out Java in almost every test, it is a far less complicated language than C++, and certainly less difficult to optimize. However, saying that C/C++ are the fastest languages is ignoring the bulk of research turned out in the last fifty years.

Daniel Spiewak on Wednesday, July 23, 2008

To Ed. K.'s post on 7/20: Those benchmarks are from 2004.

In general: I think this article got a little sidetracked on it's points at times. The theme of the article seemed to be whether C/C++ made you a better managed programmer. The questions of performance, etc. is a design decision that's irrelevant to this question.

My 2 cents, after having just changed jobs from C# to C/C++ is that doing the C/C++ has made my coding in C# on the side MUCH better. C/C++ forces you to pay more attention to what you're doing.

ZagNut on Thursday, July 24, 2008

Daniel -

I was going to make your point about Fortran, but ... much faster in most cases? Really? No. These days, in most cases, C will get you within about 90% of hand-tuned assembly. Fortran will get you within about 90%. C++ will get you within about 90%. It doesn't usually matter that much.

In particular, it doesn't matter that much between procedural languages, because (a) compilers are pretty good in most cases, so long as they're sufficiently mature and have had enough effort put into the quality of the code generation, and (b) they pretty much use the same internal representations no matter what language they're compiling. There are small differences, such as things that you can express in Fortran that you can't express in C, but those are pretty trivial for performance in most cases.

(Sure, there are pathological cases, but those are generally rare with anything that's had a decade to age and doesn't involve vectorization or similar weird processor instructions, and they tend to be rather dependent on platform.)

Brooks Moses on Thursday, July 24, 2008

The analogy is flawed for most parts of the world as automatic is AFAIK only predominant in the US. In Europe most cars are stick shifted, but I don't think that makes the drivers more "car aware" (side note).

Jonas on Sunday, July 27, 2008

I agree that one should learn how to program in C, even though I disagree with the stick shift analogy (I'd rather liken it with an old car - one that still had serviceable parts inside ;-)

It's a good idea to learn Erlang in order to play around with advanced concurrency modeling without sacrificing your sanity.

Ulf Wiger on Sunday, July 27, 2008

"And he'll know why, when he tries to allocate and then start accessing an array with 2 million elements, the hard drive churns even though the machine has 4GB of memory."

Out of curiosity: why would the hard drive churn? 2 million elements, say doubles, would require 16 MB of memory. I would assume that there will be 16 MB free memory available on such a machine, so swapping shouldn't be necessary, I'd say? What did I miss there?

oliver on Friday, August 01, 2008

C & C++ are not different languages, C++ just added stuff to C. The first C++ compilers I worked with were just preprocessors for existing C compilers (Glockenspiel etc). In fact one of the advantages of learning C++ for me was that when I went back to C and Assembler (for embedded projects) I started using OOP techniques in these languages.

By the way, compiled C/C++ code is always faster than any interpreted language. We are sometimes fooled by the apparent speed of Java/C# applications because, of course, these applications spend a large proportion of their time executing code in their run-time libraries which has often been optimized extensively (and are often running native code, in the OS, or hardware assisted graphics cards etc). This is fine for most of the time but will fail you when your own application code has to do some serious heavy lifting.

JudgeD on Monday, September 01, 2008

So, suppose the creepy message has Assembly instructions? Perhaps C?

Everybody should learn C++ for the same reason they should learn any language else, which is to learn differents way of thinking, not this just-in-case point.

God, I see so much blogs and coworkers evoking loudly everything they read around without even think about it. Sometime I would just like that our profession could be some kind of competitive-short-term-sport, so it could be easier to prove which theories are shamefully wrong.

Best regards.

me on Thursday, October 30, 2008

I wouldn't fully agree that C is the "stick shift" language.

Stick-shift cars require an initial upfront investment of an afternoon or two, but after this, the clutch/gearshift management is committed to muscle memory and becomes automatic. Then, stick-shift drives so much better and is so much more fun than automatic that you never want to go back. I would argue, noting this, that functional programming is the stick shift. It's unfamiliar at first, but becomes preferable after that initial investment.

C is worth learning (I'm reading K&R right now) and I would definitely agree that anyone who wants to consider himself a hacker has to be familiar with it at a deep level, but it's not appropriate for most large projects, and I'm much rather code in a functional language like Lisp or Ocaml.

Mike Church on Thursday, October 30, 2008

Try Erlang, it's more spaceship than car.

Pedram on Friday, December 12, 2008

I know many are not, but shouldnt ANY university/college educated programmer have some knowledge of this 'low level' stuff? CPU architectures, opcodes/assembly, and compilers (stack frames etc).... Perhaps not all University degrees ae equal?

Anonymous on Sunday, January 25, 2009

One thing that I think is getting missed is that almost any language (other than the one you program in regularly)can be used as mind expanding exercise. For me, everyday is C/C++ (I do device drivers under windows). I take all the idiosyncracies in those languages for granted and consider them 'normal', and is shapes my thinking about developing software. Erlang was an off the beaten path language mentioned, but what about some of the functional programming languages, specifically F# (derived from OCAML, derived from ML, available for free from MS)

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